• Churches under 3 years old have a member to conversion ratio of 3:1 = 3 members to 1 convert.
• Churches under 3-7 years old have a member to conversion ratio of 7:1 = 7 members to 1 convert.
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I’d like to thank everyone who has commented on my article. I tried to put a new spin on a rather dry issue with my central illustration. I am glad that my article achieved its purpose of starting some conversations going.

As a community cultivator, I see the priority of discipleship as a non-negotiable. As Joe said, “Jesus shed his precious blood so that lives could be redeemed and transformed, not so that churches could ‘prosper’.” You are singing my song man.

A transformed life is more important that bolstering our “church” to attract a crowd. If we fail to make disciples then we are doomed to become ineffective as the opening statistics in the article demonstrate. Discipleship is the measure of our efforts.

As a community leader my mantra is simple. Discipleship, Transformation, Christ Likeness. I use this as a yardstick to gauge everything we do in the church. If we make disciples, we grow. If we don’t, our community will perish as it should.

Karen, you provoked my thinking and for that I’m eternally grateful! Again, I’d like to express my thanks and appreciation to everyone who has commented on my article.
--Darren Davenport ( ThinSpaces at gmail dot com ) on 2/21/2005; 10:05:56 PM

Karen above had a problem with the "Pamela Anderson" illustration and responded more fully here. <http://haluzasoffullerton.typepad.com/raw_faith/2005/01/you_need_to_get.html>
In this she wrote, "She's a woman and mother.  She's our sister in Christ, whether we like it or not."
I don't think we should poke fun at others and wheather Pam should have been used here or is up for debate. Regardless of your opinion on this I am unaware of Pamela Anderson being a disciple of Jesus. I hope that she will be some day but unless everyone is universally/automatically a member of God's family I have my doubts that Pam is to be viewed as a "sister in Christ".
I do feel that deeper discipleship is what we are to be about a the Body of Christ.
--Guy ( guy at yahoo dot com ) on 2/14/2005; 8:36:27 AM

As a church planter, I can relate to a lot of what is being discussed here. We have been wrestling through these very issues, and we have been learning through experience that doing something "big" is not necessarily a good thing in and of itself. After 3 years, Jesus had only 12 disciples, and only 11 of them made it. We need to constantly come back to the fact that Jesus calls us to deny ourselves, to pick up our crosses, and to follow him. That message is not likely to bring in the masses! Being Christ to each other and to the watching world may not bring us a big congregation, but it will build the kind of community that Jesus would be proud to call his own. Jesus shed his precious blood so that lives could be redeemed and transformed, not so that churches could "prosper". Thanks for your very helpful article! --Joe
--Joe S. ( joscor at bellatlantic dot net ) on 1/22/2005; 8:46:27 PM

What do disciples look like in 2005, Is the commission the same as "just as the father has sent me so send I you, Do you think disciples have the right to do the ministry of Jesus? Thanks, I don't know if this is the proper plasce to ask questions if it is not, sorry.
--BIll ( ghabing1 at charter dot net ) on 1/21/2005; 3:35:09 AM

We need a new standard for deciding when a Church is successful. A church may grow rapidly in numbers, without its members growing to maturity. A successful Church will be producing elders who can be sent out as apostles. In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers who could be sent out as apostles. It may not have been a large church, but it showed the sign of true maturity.

A new Church should not wait too long before sending out an apostolic team. As soon as people are ready to take over the leadership, the apostles should be sent on to start a new Church. The sooner this happens, the better. Once a Church grows beyond a certain size, its leaders become indispensable and it will be too hard to replace the elders who are sent out. It is more likely to get institutionalised. An established Church is much harder to mobilise than a new one.

A Church that is continually sending out apostles will be an exciting place to be. There will be no room for complacency to creep in. If a Church is continually sending out apostles there will always be a challenge for the remaining members. They will have an opportunity to grow into leadership. Potential leaders will be constantly stepping up into the roles of those who have left. This will be a tough challenge for them, but they will not get bored. When people get bored and restless, problems follow.

The pastor/leader says it is tough at the centre and harder than being sent out. He is correct, but his task is hard because he is often surrounded by bored, purposeless, proud, critical or lazy Christians. His church is often full of people who have remained as spiritual infants, because the structure of the church did not allow them to grow into eldership ministries.

We do not need superstars. Most elders can become apostles. In fact, many of the apostles in the New Testament were such ordinary people (Barnabas, Andronicus, Junias), that we know very little about them. They were not super apostles. If we were to stop looking for the spectacular, we would find there are many people in our churches who are called to be apostles.

The Greek word for apostle is used frequently in the New Testament. The problem for us is that the noun is translated “apostle”, but the verb is translated as “sent”. When we see the word “sent” in the New Testament, we should think “apostle”. We would then realise that being “apostled” was not limited to a few “big names”, but was very common.

Sending out apostles is something that every church should be doing. They may not be in the same league as Paul or Silas, but they could exercise valid ministries, if they were recognised and released. If there is rapid growth in the number of Churches, there will always be an opportunity for people to exercise this ministry.

From Being Church Where We Live
(www.kingwatch.co.nz)
--John ( getrad2 at yahoo dot co dot nz ) on 1/11/2005; 10:12:15 PM

http://www.larknews.com/january_2005/secondary.php?page=3

Could the guy who posted underneath be the same guy? Just kidding buddy. Just thought this was funny.
--Dustin ( dustin at mosaicmanhattan dot com ) on 1/11/2005; 12:29:17 PM

I personally don't like the term "Christian" - in today's world, it fosters some of that "we-they", "us-them", "insider-outsider" mentality.

I prefer the term found in Acts - being people of "The Way".

The terms 'church plant' and 'community' are worn out as well. For me, they imply some sort of human work - as in, "Hey, let's go create a church, or let's go create community." The Calvinist in me senses that churches and community are not created - rather, they are discovered - discovered in the most surprising places.

Real "church' and "community" is something that cannot be written about - but you know it when you find it. I don't know if you can put it in words.
--Jim Kress ( james dot p dot kress at verizon dot net ) on 1/10/2005; 10:21:38 AM

drive, that is
--Jim Kress ( james dot p dot kress at verizon dot net ) on 1/10/2005; 10:12:49 AM

Wasn't it Freud who made connections between male pre-occupation with size, religious impulses, and drive?
--Jim Kress ( james dot p dot kress at verizon dot net ) on 1/10/2005; 10:09:09 AM

weeeeeeeee....... this is fun to read! Thanks for the perspectives.....makes me reflect on recent illustrations used! Thanks for the food for thought!
--dean ( Emailgodboy2000 at hotmail dot com ) on 1/9/2005; 4:16:55 PM

Excellent article, Bob.

I thought the Pamela Anderson image was compelling and provocative. Got me thinking about developing a TV series called "Desperate Pastors" (in the spirit of "Desperate Housewives").

It is my deep conviction that the Church is still lost in the grips of modernism - the mindset that says, "Here we are - come to us." I am troubled by churches - large and small - who are infected by hubris when it comes to building the kingdom.

For example:
Just this morning in the local Seattle newspaper, I saw an little ad with the catchline, "Can the Church save Christianity", followed by a line saying that, "The fastest growing church in North America is the church of the unchurched." I smiled inside when I saw this, and a peaceful calm came over my soul, thinking, "Thank you Lord. You are building Your Kingdom - in spite of the church." I would re-write the title of this ad, saying something to the effect of "Good News - Christianity is saving the Church."

So many churches - large and small - desire to shape and lead and influence culture. They go after the latest technology, the hippest music, the trendiest fashion, and yada yada yada. But the prevailing mood is "come to us" or, a darker and more sinister form that says, "look how good we are going out."

In the community where I live, there is a plethora of churches, large and small. These churches all do their own unique thing. I sense an underlying tone of competition amoong the pastors - which church can be the hippest, trendiest, innovative, culture shaping, etc. It's a that works well - if you are Starbucks or Microsoft, and are trying to attract venture capatilists and investors to build your own company or 'empire'.

How easily we forget - Jesus is the bride, and we are the groom.

For example:
I wonder what would happen if a band of churches in a local community came together and went to their local City Council with a check to build a state of the art skate park for youth in a City Park - no name or no strings attached.

Or, a band of churches came together and went to their local public school district with a big chunk of money to build a performing arts center for schools to use for their concerts - again, no name or mo strings attached.

Whatever the context, the point is to add value to the community with absolutely no name or no strings attached. Lose the temptation to say, "This skate park brought to you by ABC Church - come check us out."

Thank you again - I love this site!
--Jim Kress ( james dot p dot kress at verizon dot net ) on 1/9/2005; 10:17:46 AM

For those of you reading the articles, please forgive me for the google advertising on this page....yikes! And I don't really know how to get rid of it. Google serves pages based on their content. I am going to try to block these sites....once again, I apologize....
Blessings,
Charlie Wear
--Charlie Wear ( charleswear at yahoo dot com ) on 1/8/2005; 8:43:07 PM

Sorry to get sidetracked by Ms. Anderson's picture and the bustline analogy, but was that the best one you could find? It was distracting from your main message and it was disrespectful to a woman who is, in many women's perspectives, more a victim of the sexually exploitive media system than a success story. Breast augmentation (and more recently reduction) or not, Ms. Anderson is a real person and not just an edgy way for you to make your point.
--Karen H. ( haluza at pacbell dot net ) on 1/8/2005; 6:03:56 PM

Lots of great comments here! Great conversation starter. I think our Visioning Team will take a read of this article. All the same issues of those navigated this whole new church paradigm thing: emergent, urban, post-something, denominational, etc. Good stuff, Thanks!
Bruce "Church planter" in SF
--Bruce Reyes-Chow ( brucerc at missionbaycc dot org ) on 1/8/2005; 2:25:32 PM

Hey bob,

sorry, you're right! I love your website by the way.

"Here's what I'm saying- I think it's a good thing to get off the marketing your church, church-as-provider-of-religious-goods-and-services bandwagon."

I totally agree and I feel the same way about becoming a provider of religious goods and services bandwagon. I have when people come with that mindset. All I'm saying is that because of a little postcard there are people who are being discipled right now who might not have gotten that opportunity. I wouldn't trade that for the world. I totally agree that those things you listed can indeed happen with advertising. Everthing you do has positive and negative consequences that are possible. But that doesn't mean I just throw those things out. There is no reason a church cannot be relational and missional and still send out a card advertising what is going on in the coming months. All of these things you listed can happen but they don't have to if done right.
--Dustin ( dustin at mosaicmanhattan dot com ) on 1/6/2005; 6:48:27 PM

Bob – I agree, the synergy of our articles is very cool. I agree with your reasons for not advertising. If the people are not relational then we short-circuit a growth path by advertising to bring people in.

When we focus on building a large crowd we make the mistake of labeling our larger congregations as communities. The reality is that we now have a large group of strangers without a deep relational connection to each other.

Becoming a community requires that we move beyond the programmatic approach to a more relational discipleship. Like you, I do not think that bigger churches are the answer. Networks of House Churches / micro-church and small churches have a greater potential to nurture Christ-Followers.

In our community, we are not advertising or doing all the programmatic things that help a church grow fast. We are focusing on nurturing disciples who can create disciples of others. In time, our church will grow as we engage others in relationship. We plant, others water but God brings the increase.
--Darren Davenport ( thinspaces at typepad dot com ) on 1/6/2005; 4:05:01 PM

I am happy your article was picked up. It was what alot of people are thinking but don't know how to articulate it. Well stated EXCEPT.......With the way men struggle with pornography I was shocked to say the least with the picture you chose to use to proove your point. There are plenty of pictures of Pamela that would've prooved your point without displaying the obvious. Did you notice there is a link to Pamela Anderson calenders? For all of the wives out there have a little more respect and realize there is a way to get your point across without taking it too far. Balance your message. other than that ........... the article was great!
Heidi Cochran~ Fellow church planter!
--Heidi Cochran ( heidicochran at hotmail dot com ) on 1/6/2005; 12:21:12 PM

careful there dustin... be nice!

Here's what I'm saying- I think it's a good thing to get off the marketing your church, church-as-provider-of-religious-goods-and-services bandwagon. There are many things that WORK... but they may not be the best methodology for the church. I know one church that runs a contest every year- whoever brings the most "guests" wins a cruise. It works... it's also crass and would be completely unnecessary in a church full of people who actually care about their neighbors. That church can point to people who came because of their contest- as can the church that put a cash prize under one of the seats on "Friendship Sunday" for the lucky person who sat there. These things bring in people... but maybe there are better ways.

My concern with advertising is that it:

fosters competition among church communities

focuses attention on the more consumeristic aspects of church- our programs, our bells and whistles, etc

gets us thinking more about bringing people in as an evangelistic strategy at the expense of a focus on sending people out.


Again- we won't do the large scale advertising because though it may work, I continue to feel that if we don't grow because our community is building relationships with friends, neighbors, co-workers, then we really don't desrve to grow. someone might call it foolish- I call it missional.
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 1/6/2005; 1:01:29 AM

I'm am speaking of the poster at the bottom by the way, not the author. I thought it was a good article and I agree we shouldn't short circuit the early growth stages but at the same time I don't see anything inherently wrong with advertising or starting with a group of 200 people.
--Dustin ( dustin at mosaicmanhattan dot com ) on 1/5/2005; 6:16:13 PM

If you are in a new community in your city, a great way to let people know you are starting up is to do a mailing or some kind of advertising. Why isn't it possible to do both advertise and build disciples? I don't see the rub at all. I'm helping to start a second church in New York City and we're definitely planning on advertising. It would be foolish to not let people know we are here. Sure we are building up disciples in the hopes that they will take the Great Commission seriously but let's not be slamming something that has been very effective in the past. At the church i'm working with we have had some people who never thought they would come to a church community start spending time with us because of our mailing. After about 1 year she was baptized and is inviting friends weekly. But I guess advertising isn't worth anything. We probably should have left her alone unless someone met her personally. This is very flawed. It's certainly not one or the other as the man above, "we've never advertised and never will" has said. Maybe you should advertise. You could actually have quite a few interactions with people who are not followers of Christ that you might not have otherwise. Pure foolishness.
--Dustin ( dustin at mosaicmanhattan dot com ) on 1/5/2005; 6:11:09 PM

"I'm not so thrilled with the picture. How do i explain that to someone who walks into their pastor's office as he reads your page? "

Tell them to get over it ... if they know you they would have no questions about what you are looking at on the net ... integrity and reputation go a long way, especially for pastors these days!
--William ( w_nunn at c2i dot net ) on 1/5/2005; 12:10:22 PM

Darren,
Good article! Building a church of other than disciples results in the sad spectical of "sermon tasters" and "consumer christians" that so often pad the number count. Interestingly, our Lord started with 12 - one or two at a time. His "church" would never hit the "what's hot in churches" scene.

Stay the course buddy, and hi to Cheryl!
--Bud Palmberg ( budanddj at macaid dot com ) on 1/4/2005; 5:33:43 PM

I'm not so thrilled with the picture. How do i explain that to someone who walks into their pastor's office as he reads your page?
-- ( hmm at hotamil dot com ) on 1/4/2005; 2:21:14 PM

very cool- thanks for putting this out there. I liked seeing the synergy between our articles this month. I know the kind of start-ups you're talking about. There's tremendous pressure on the planters- it really becomes a numbers game. And it also becomes impossible to work out of a more emergent philosophical orientation, because right from the beginning you find yourself getting back on the same old hampster wheel you thought you had gotten off.
Another problem with starting churches this way... the community has not "earned" the things they have. I've heard of churches that start with a kid's pastor, worship pastor, full array of programs, etc... and when the seed money runs out, they have to close the doors. Why? Because the people are certainly not giving at a level where they can support that type of infrastructure. Why not? Because they don't have to. They had a big bankroll. But once that's gone...

We've never advertised, and we probably won't (at least not with those every-house-in-the-zip-code-mailers). We figure, if we're not growing because our people are building relationships with others and folding them into the community, then we really don't deserve to grow, do we?

Good article, good questions...
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 1/3/2005; 11:10:44 AM