I was totally thrilled when asked to write an article about "Women in Ministry."  I was thrilled because let's face it, it's a big ego stroke to have someone ask you to write something. I was completely energized for it. I had all these great ideas about the film Whale Rider and how it demonstrates all the good things that can happen when you let women lead. I was pumped.

Then this month happened, and all the crappy part about what it is to be a woman in ministry came crashing down on me. I have been a hurt and angry person. And it is hard to say something anyone can hear when you are a snapping snarling dog. (Hmm, that's awfully close to another metaphor too often used for women, so don't nobody go there.)

I've learned some things this past month about being a woman in the emerging church that has deflated my happiness balloon. The first is this. Even though we are theologically on board with all people being involved in leadership and ministry, our praxis has not significantly changed. The men went to school first to do this thing called "pastoring." They met people there. They got mentored by people like Steve Nicholson. They were Len Sweet's teaching assistant. They learned each other's names, and what they were good at, and when they needed someone who was good at that they called each other. For a time, before they went crazy and did the next wave-ish thing, they got paid to do ministry so they had time to collect their thoughts, and read their books, and put their ideas down in sermons. They read N.T. Wright and Dallas Willard and things that had more than 100 pages. Now they share a common vocabulary that does not primarily consist of Olivia Saves the Circus with the occasional smattering of Traveling Mercies. They left the kids at home and traveled to conferences (which maybe their church paid for), which led to more contacts, which led to speaking gigs, which led to articles, which maybe morphed into book deals. Then they got invited to speak at Emergent.

We-the women (unless we were in the mainline churches)-we didn't get to do that stuff. We don't know the right people. No one knows to ask us. Or if they do know us, our name isn't as well known as the next guy's so it doesn't behoove them to put us on the conference list. We've got no draw. And as for building a stronger network by going to a conference-do you have any idea how much childcare costs for a three day conference (plus two days to travel)? This week I went to a one-day coaching clinic. My husband couldn't take off work to watch the kids, so my childcare bill was $200. You can see why, unlike most of my male peers who were at the clinic yesterday, I will not be joining the Emergent Village conference in San Diego! In the old church we weren't allowed to play. In the emergent church, we can play, but we don't have what is thought of as the right equipment. Or at least not all of it.

The second thing I've learned is that women-unlike men-are not allowed to be angry, or even frustrated, or really even forceful, assertive, or honest. Recently in the emergent scene there was a little fight over words. Some of the women stated their minds about it. They thought it sucked to be linguistically belittled. They thought it sounded idiotic, in 2004, to speak dismissively of women. Now, most people thought the whole brouhaha was about semantics. But for me, the sadness was that the only way I could be heard was to play nice, to make my language very soft, to send my message though the backdoor. Men and women both-all in the emerging, super hip, super with-it church-told me that my anger wasn't helping, and that I shouldn't express rage if I wanted to be like Jesus. (I seem to remember something about tables and whips in a temple…. But, whatever.) I saw Madeline Albright on television a few months ago, and she was talking about working with men in government. She said they used to pat her on the hand and say, "Now, now, Madame Secretary. Let's not get emotional about this." Her reply was something like, "This is Rwanda we are talking about. People are dying by the thousands. I think that merits some emotion."

Last week, after reading all the emergent blogs, my friend, an amazingly gifted teacher and worship leader, told me maybe she didn't want to pastor even in the emerging church, because it was just so discouraging that women were still so sidelined there. Maybe she could actually do more good outside of the church walls.

Yesterday at the clinic a young woman told us that she had abandoned her dream of pastoring and was going to pursue teaching theology as a university professor instead. In the ivory towers she wouldn't have to engage with the same level of discrimination against women, but she could still affect the church by teaching. Her mentor, a woman professor I know and admire, had told this young woman that's what she had done. That's why she was a professor and not a pastor.

Yesterday, at the coaching clinic a woman told us a story. She and her husband used to pastor a church. He was the senior and she was the assistant. The congregation was comfortable with that. He got sick. She took care of him and the church as the interim senior pastor while he was sick. He died. They hired someone else to take his place, a couple. She was let go.

This merits some emotion. This actually merits anger. And if the emerging church wants authenticity, we are going to have to find a way to let that be communicated, to let that be "helpful to the conversation." Because right now you're only getting half truths. We're only telling the socially acceptable part of our story. The part that says, "Oh, if you don't mind too much, here's how you can help us." But we need to tell the rest-the pain that cuts deep and the rage that follows. If we as a community can't manage to do that I'm not sure things will ever really change. And I know things will never totally heal as long as we have to continue to hide the reality of our lives.

This is what it has been like, for me, to be a woman in ministry this month. Maybe next month will be better.

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--xvernzez ( ngqbzhhi at dxnjvmmo dot com ) on 2/17/2007; 6:24:58 PM

Once again, I'm incredibly depressed by a writing on the hardships of women in ministry. But it is a message that I hope more people realize. I'll keep on trying to find a place of ministry. Searching for over 4 years now....
--A Lin ( wilfhh29 at hotmail dot com ) on 9/30/2006; 7:16:54 PM

hi my name is rachelle and i am thrilled to read your page it is amazing well bye


o and i am 11 years old
--rachelle ( hotrachelle at hotmail dot com ) on 9/27/2005; 9:10:04 PM

I FEEL YOUR PAIN, I recently completed seminary and have been an associate minister at my church for several years, on track for a year which will end 5/05 which is to prepare me for licensing. My trial sermon date has been changed several times, I invited guest to hear me speak those who have prayed and encouraged me. My Sr. Pastor and Body Life Pastor seemingly are not encouraging me. But. I shall stand steadfast until God says to do other, and I encourage others to do the same wait for God to show up and show out in our behalf.
--mINISTER jOY ( MINISTERJOY1 at AOL dot COM ) on 2/27/2005; 4:54:54 PM

And all I was trying to do is read up on Amy Simple McPherson. Thank you stirring the waters. My response? What can I do that would make you smile your sweetest smile, Jesus?
--September Johnson ( sejohnso at vbschools dot com ) on 1/27/2005; 12:55:42 PM

The article was not insightful nor unusual- maybe that is what keeps hitting me between the eye balls! It really doesn't matter if you are in an emerging church or an evangelical church, or even many main line. Women called to pastor soon realize that the male church staff view them as "The church house wife."

I went to seminary, rubbed elbows, and played the game so that I would have the background and education that my male counterparts held up as "necessary" to be accepted. I did it with the top honors the school awards it's students. Still, the staff and elders ask me to plan the beverages and snacks, claiming this isn't a "gender" thing. Uh-huh. So if it isn't a gender thing, how come the 7 men on staff did not get asked to provide such items? Random decision? I think not.

The scope of my position is over-seeing/shepherding 500 women and their gender-related ministries. My area and scope of responsibilities rivals that of the top 2 pastors. Yet, with the same educational background, experience, etc., I am paid half of what they make, do not recieve the perks and benefits offered the men on staff. Nor do I recieve the administrative support that is available to them. I pay out of pocket for admin help- the same pocket that only recieves half of what the men get!

When I try to use teachable moments...I besically get told that this is not a high priority for them. When I brought up the pay discrepancies, I was told that "I should be happy to be using my gifts for the Lord." The senior pastor even admitted to me that he was sure glad God made him a white male!!! In other words, "It sure is good to hold all the power and control everyone else. Yes, I see the inequity and injustice, but hey, it works for ME." And we are supposed to respect and follow this type of leadership?!? The same pastor preaches on love, servant leadership, and the problem of hypocrisy in the church!

I taste the bitter injustice from the gender issues. What it has helped me to understand is the other injustices, that are evident in our society. In light of Martin Luther King Day, I want to apologize to all my brothers and sisters who have a different ethnicity than white-anglo. I am so sorry for the injustice that you face daily. I am sorry that you have to put up with hate and apathy from those who are privilaged. The privilaged Christians need to get off their pristine thrones and actively pursue justice. Without action, love is a meaningless word.

In the gospel of Luke one sees how our precious Jesus saw the women and pushed the equality issue to the very edge of his culture. I keep wondering where that edge is in our time and culture. And why is it the church seems to lag behind secular society in loving and valuing women like Jesus did?

The question that no one is answering with clarity is, "How to we make a positive change on this issue?'
--Dawn ( hermonites2 at adelphia dot net ) on 1/16/2005; 3:53:27 PM

Thanks for your authenticity.

A few years back at one of the first emergent church type conferences in New Mexico, I got quite angry (embarassingly so) during one of the workshops. The workshop was highlighting the constructs some of the newer churches were using in ministry (lots of church within a church models being talked about then). A panel of men and women were in front. The guys pretty much dominated the conversation, not letting the women speak. So I asked the question about what they really believed about community and doing ministry as male and female together? Boy, did the room erupt. I noticed something very sad then which unfortunately has not worked its way through to a place of health and Gospel truth from your report.

As female boomer pastor, one-generation to the next, YOU GO GIRL! My prayers are with you as you endeavor to follow God in integrity and grace.

Words of wisdom--dive deep when the waters get stormy.
--Jan Bros ( jbros at thedoor dot org ) on 1/12/2005; 11:01:55 PM

Hi, Your article and the other comments were very interesting. They opened the subject like a kaleidoscope!
--Mary ( thevalleychristian at yahoo dot com ) on 7/14/2004; 4:27:00 PM

Dearest in the Lord,
I am the above named person from South Africa. I am married to Mr.GREOGE ATTA, who worked with South African embassy in Ivory Coast for nine years before he died in the year 2002. We were married for eleven years without a child.
He died after a brief illness that lasted for only four days. Before his death we were both born again Christians.Since his death I decided not to re-marry or get a child outside my matrimonial home which the Bible is against.
When my late husband was alive he deposited the sum of 3.5Million U.S.(TWEVLE MILLION FIVE HUNDERD thousand Dollars) with one BANK in cote d' ivoire.Presently, this money is still with the BANK. Recently, my Doctor told me that I would notlast for the next two years due to cancer problem.
Though what disturbs me most is my stroke Having known my condition I decided to donate this fund to church or better still a christian individual that will utilize this money the way I am going to instruct here in.
I want a church that will use this to fund churches, orphanages and widows propagating the word of God and to ensure that the house of God is maintained. The Bible made us to understand that Blessed is the hand that giveth.

I took this decision because I don't have any child that will inherit this money and my husband relatives are not Christians and I don't want my husband's hard earned money to be misused by unbelievers.
I don't want a situation where this money will be used in an ungodly manner. Hence the reason for taking this bold decision. I am not afraid of death hence I know where I am going. I know that I am going to be in the bossom of the Lord. Exodus 14 VS 14 says that the lord will fight my case and I shall hold my peace.
I don't need any telephone communication in this regard because of my health because of the presence of my husband's relatives around me always. I don't want them to know about this development. With God all things are possible.
As soon as I receive your reply I shall give you the contact of the BANK in ivory coast.
I will also issue you a letter of authority that will empower you as the original- beneficiary of this fund. I want you and the church to always pray for me because the lord is my shephard. My happiness is that I lived a life of a worthy Christian.
Whoever that wants to serve the Lord must serve him in spirit and truth. Please always be prayerful all through your life. any delay in your reply will give me room in searching for a church or christian individual for this same purpose.

Please assure me that you will act accordingly as I stated herein. Hoping to hearing from you as soon as you received this mail .
Remain blessed in the name of the Lord.
Yours in Christ.
SISTER SIM ATTA
-- SIM ATTA ( Emailsim6_780 at yahoo dot com ) on 6/7/2004; 9:53:46 PM

Ben,

I think what God's doing with me and my compadres is very different. (Not that other stuff is invalid -- I'm just grateful to have the space to do what we are called to do.) We're multicongregational (5 pastors, 3 congregations, one budget, one staff) so we reach a lot of different folks, but without divisiveness (very kingdom-y). We've managed to ordain a woman in the Vineyard and let her plant a postmodern neomonastic order/house church (ThPM). At ThPM our "missions" budget pays for anything our crew does that touches people outside the four walls of the church -- so that mostly means renting bowling alleys, buying beers, and mixing cocktails. We honor all forms of worship -- from hymns, to labyrinths, to walks in the park, to acrylics and watercolors. (So people are worshiping God again because they've found a language they can understand.) There's lots of new stuff going on...new theology too. Start with a blog like mine www.thursdaypm.org (cultivator's blog) or Kevin Rains www.kevinrains.com (check out his church-at-the-pub stuff, or link to his community site and learn about the brownhouse) or read the bios at www.missionalcoop.org and see what's going on (check out Benji and Abbi Roades and On the House). There's a "move of the Spirit" going on....the muse, she's busy....Aslan is afoot...whatever metaphor works for you, man. And, it's not just an old dog doing new tricks. (Although we do need to get it to stop some of it's bad habits!)

Rachelle
--Rachelle ( rachelle at seattlevineyard dot org ) on 3/29/2004; 10:21:57 PM

The more I read about emerging or emergent or whatever the correct term is, the more I fail to see a significant difference between it and the current version of christianity. The problems seem to be very similar, and there's a lot of noise about not doing the old thing because it's the old thing. What's God doing different?
--Ben Williams ( qxzlool at yahoo dot com ) on 3/29/2004; 10:46:41 AM

Amen! to the Women in Ministry piece. I feel that Women in Ministry get more than overlooked. It is time for women in ministry across the nation and across denominational lines join together and begin to build a network of support in various areas. We operate under different praxis. We know all to well the burden of multi-tasking and the greater expectations from people.

Let us join together from North, South, East and West-- It is time to embrace the call that God has placed upon our lives and not let the circumstances dictate where we ought to be.
--Leslie ( lesdiaz77 at hotmail dot com ) on 3/27/2004; 12:27:12 AM

Amen! to the Women in Ministry piece. I feel that Women in Ministry get more than overlooked. It is time for women in ministry across the nation and across denominational lines join together and begin to build a network of support in various areas. We operate under different praxis. We know all to well the burden of multi-tasking and the greater expectations from people.

Let us join together from North, South, East and West-- It is time to embrace the call that God has placed upon our lives and not let the circumstances dictate where we ought to be.
--Leslie ( lesdiaz77 at hotmail dot com ) on 3/27/2004; 12:27:11 AM

Rachelle, I did leave for a number of years, but I'm back... hopefully wiser!

Loved your part about anger and wanted to suggest a great new book out by Andrew Lester - "The Angry Christian."
--Laura ( lvfregin at aol dot com ) on 3/24/2004; 11:09:33 PM

Hey Rachelle, I loved your story. It rings so true to the experiences of many of us here at Christians for Biblical Equality, www.cbeinternational.org
It would be great to have a chat with you at some point to explore ways of advancing the important message of gift-based ministry. May Christ continue to use your leadership and voice within this important discussion. Thanks so much! Mimi
--Mimi Haddad ( mimi at cbeinternational dot org ) on 3/24/2004; 5:42:21 PM

Hey Rachelle, I loved your story. It rings so true to the experiences of many of us here at Christians for Biblical Equality, www.cbeinternational.org
It would be great to have a chat with you at some point to explore ways of advancing the important message of gift-based ministry. May Christ continue to use your leadership and voice within this important discussion. Thanks so much! Mimi
--Mimi Haddad ( mimi at cbeinternational dot org ) on 3/24/2004; 5:42:10 PM

I've been having one of those kind of months as well. I feel so ill-equiped to be the one that women turn to when they only want to hear my thoughts and not my husband's, who's the "paid" pastor on the team. So, I know what you had to say holds a lot of truth.

As a woman in ministry though, I'd like to add my thoughts. I think that if we are only in this "job" for the money, clout, recognition...then we ought not be in the paid ministry. The comments are beginning to sound like we are employees dumping on Corporate America! Christ came to seek and to save those who are lost. We, as his Ambassadors, paid or not, are to "go into all the world and preach the gospel, make disciples, and baptize them." I don't know about you, but the word "make" means it ain't gonna be easy or pretty. It's messy, and can be pretty ugly, but OH so rewarding!

I do believe that as the emerging church is emerging, then we need to remember that women & children are not only vital to the ministry, but to God! So, we need to be more respectful and thoughtful as plans are made for conferences, etc... I know, I have 4 kids under 6 years old. This is a BIG one for me! But, if the only reason we want to be at these events is so that we can rub shoulders with the "right" people and schmooze them with our charm, or we are looking for "glory" in ministry...then get the heck out of the way of God! It's not your show. It's His! You need a motives check. So...excuse my "emotions," but it's
been one of those months for me too! :-)

I'd be interested to know how many of us women have found mentors and have been refreshed and encouraged by them. Got any stories to tell?
--Mindi Jentes, thequest ( mindi at thequestcolumbus dot com ) on 3/20/2004; 11:44:08 AM

Feeling alone? I wonder why the pervasive feeling as mentioned by Rachelle....I can tell you, when I was pastoring I felt along quite a bit, luckily my pastoral career didn't last that long...:) I think that maybe there needs to be a greater evidence of the "apostolic" gift of encouragment, as evidenced by Paul when he wrote to Timothy...The normal "apostolic" route, denominations, etc. don't seem to apply anymore...
--Charlie Wear ( charleswear at yahoo dot com ) on 3/16/2004; 8:10:58 PM

"Hope that's an adequate response."

Well said, Rachelle. For the record I don't equate all people in front of the microphone or who have public ministries as trying to "be somebody"...it's just that an over-emphasis on being public is often (but not always) the result of unfettered ambition. Also, blind ambition has no attachment to gender...and, if it did, I think it would more likely attach itself to the "male" species. There are plenty of people in the emergent thing doing it right and I don't want to sound overly pessimistic about "leadership." I'm not a spiritual anarchist but then neither am I a spiritual U.S. Marine...somewhere in the middle is that "diakonos" or "doulos" version of leadership. Let us strive to be life-giving models of that type of leader.
--Greg ( suppliants at yahoo dot com ) on 3/15/2004; 1:15:12 PM

I was relating so much to you, especially the child care struggle. I have a one-year-old daughter who came to work with me for the first eight months...I don't quite know how it happened but despite complaints from parishioners (who hired me at 20 weeks pregnant!) we cobbled it together and it worked.

I am longing for the time when church conferences are truly child and women-friendly...it's sort of a strange example but my vision is for it to be like a La Leche League conference where there are rooms with big comfy chairs, playrooms, dads, moms, whoever, and you can listen to the conference and attend to your child because everybody supports the right of your young child to be with you. Truly support it, not say they do and then not know what to do with us!

When I was nursing my daughter when she was little I had to ask for special permission to have a child on our church assembly floor, and all I got was a very nasty, "well, if you're discreet."

Thanks again for your words and in the words of Ani DiFranco, "if you're not angry, then you're just stupid, you don't care...how else can you react when you know something so unfair?"
Peace,
Beth
--Beth ( bethbirk at att dot net ) on 3/15/2004; 10:00:36 AM

Greg asked me (via my blog) what I thought of his comments here. I think my response is two fold.

1) It's surprsing to me how many people equate a person desire to fill his/her calling towards teaching/shaping/insipiring the church as a grab for attention or clout or power. Every time I write about women in ministry, I get a collection of responses which say, "why do you want to be "in leadership," or "in charge," or "recognized," or "in the spotlight?" My response is always the same. I don't. I just want to be who I'm created to be. And for me that's a prophet and teacher. Most of the time that means talking around a dinner table, making soup, pouring wine. (diakanos leadership) But sometimes, it involves a pulipit, or a microphone, or yes -- even an offer to be published in an online 'zine. So when that happens, I get happy, you know? Because I'm in "the zone" there too, not just as a table servant, but as a public servant -- in service to the call of God on my life.

2) I totally hear Greg's point about being alone. Almost everyone in this organic thing we call "emerging" or "next wave" or "new reformation" or whatever feels alone. It is a very common song. I feel alone, a lot. But I've been thinking...and this is a new idea for me, one I'm just beginning to lean into, but maybe this pervasive alone-ness is teaching us something we need to know about the culture we are to be emmersed in? Even if that's true, it's still a hard place to be. Thankfully, I've found the emergent world to be easy to connect in. Just type!

Hope that's an adequate response.

Thanks for all the feedback. -Rachelle
--Rachelle ( rachelle at seattlevineyard dot org ) on 3/14/2004; 11:57:25 AM

I appreciated your article...however...
I find it interesting you said:

"I was thrilled because let's face it, it's a big ego stroke to have someone ask you to write something. I was completely energized for it. I had all these great ideas about the film Whale Rider and how it demonstrates all the good things that can happen when you let women lead. I was pumped."

It seems to me like your on your way to "making it" or "becoming somebody" in this whole Emerging thing. So what then? Do you just become a perpetuator of the old system...in other words...do we just change the name from the "Good Ol' Boys Network" to the "Kinder, Gentler But Cool Emerging Good Ol' Boys & Women's (I dare NOT say girl's!) Network"? Listen, I'm on the outside: I don't know "all the right people," and am usually ignored and overlooked. I'm not one of the "all the right people" to link to on your Favorite Blogs List or to quote on your blog because knowing me won't get you any cool points in the Emerging convo. And I'm down with that because I'm not trying to "be" anybody...
--Greg ( suppliants at yahoo dot com ) on 3/13/2004; 10:05:43 AM

What a personal and compelling picture of a woman in ministry. Thanks, Rachelle.

You may not feel like you have a lot in common with the male pastors you know but you have something in common with one of the most influential--the one who said he was hard pressed on every side in ministry, but not crushed. I hope you keep going strong to the end as he did.

What a great, specific insight into ministry you've written. And thanks for making the problem clear so that we can do something to change it.
--Don Warner ( info at southsouthsoundvineyard dot org ) on 3/12/2004; 12:32:23 PM

its an interesting perspective. my church is Pastored by a woman (Pastor Ann) and in our little Lutheran church of college students, young families and grandparents it works.

jason
--Jason ( clipon25 at hotmail dot com ) on 3/12/2004; 1:37:16 AM

I hear what you're saying and there's lots of honesty and truthfulness in it - I'd like to add that as a bloke who has 'pastored' in the Anglican and Baptist Church in 'the sticks' as opposed to the 'happening places' ie. the big city or cool ministry places then a lot of what you say would also apply to men like me. The question we need to be considering is just what is ministry or leadership anyway? Jesus was surrounded by women and not popular for it - he was also surrounded by hapless and sidelined men - there was and is no glamour to this thing and that is something we need to address too - oh, by the way - I burned out and now I work with homeless children (somehow I think I'm in the right place since 'leadership' isn't necessarily what it's cracked up to be) sorry if there's a note of bitterness - I'm not, really . . .
--hadge ( hadgehughes at yahoo dot co dot uk ) on 3/11/2004; 12:16:25 PM

Rachelle

I am proud of you
--Jim Henderson ( jim at off-the-map dot org ) on 3/10/2004; 6:08:46 PM

I agree. I work in the sports industry- coaching competitive youth soccer- and yes, its the same attitude. You have to meet certain qualifications and licensing to attain the paying positions, and now that women are more accepted, most still don't have enough qualifications, by the sheer fact of past exclusion from these opportunities, mentors, etc.

Thanks for screaming what needs to be heard. Everyone has the right to earn a living where God has given them a passion.
--Amy ( soccerAKW at aol dot com ) on 3/10/2004; 1:05:14 AM

Good stuff. I can totally relate. There are days when you can't get anymore filled with the Spirit--then there are days when you'd like to start throwing punches--and then there are the days when you want to go to bed and just cry.

I just keep thinking that if we don't grow weary the harvest will be great.

Thanks for saying it all so well.
--Missy ( jeffandmissy90 at yahoo dot com ) on 3/8/2004; 6:29:21 PM

As a woman who has pastored mainline churches for 15 years, I also add an AMEN. But please don't give up. It is possible to raise a family and respond to God's call. (Sleep, however, is optional:>) Now that my girls are older, it's much easier. But we need to help each other out and work together to build our own networks. The guys may start the race ahead of us, but God who loves us gives us the resources we need. We can build communities that really glorify God when we speak up about what's wrong. " We are a gentle, angry people,a nd we are singing for our lives"
--Leigh ( lmccaffrey at highstream dot net ) on 3/8/2004; 8:07:33 AM

Gr8 Article! This needs to be said, and said again until people get the message. The emerging church is no different to the modern church when it comes to women leadership, there is a heirarchy. You mentioned emerging blogs, there's even a perceived hierarchy in that community. We've aloing way to go to kick back the cobwebs of women making the coffee and men doing the sermons.
--Dave ( davec at globe dot net dot nz ) on 3/8/2004; 1:42:57 AM

Very cool, Rachelle. Thanks for painting us a word picture that helps show us the issue.

And BTW you have BIG draw!
--Mike ( miketodd07 at shaw dot ca ) on 3/6/2004; 4:58:08 PM

Hey, you are right on with this. Good for you for writing it in such a clear way. This *was* the situation in the mid-nineties when this conversation first began and it still is almost a decade later. Hopefully, people have grown ears.

A lot of us left for the edges...you can barely make a living but there's a lot of room.
--Karen ( misseenie at yahoo dot com ) on 3/6/2004; 1:17:55 PM

Rachelle,

I've followed the discussion and your blog through this from afar - thank you for your article. I hear you - you are not alone. Thanks for having the courage to keep talking and telling your story.

I liked the comment above that said "you make your keyboard sing" - it's true - you have a gift. God is going to use you in this new thing we call the emergent church.

Keep doing what God has called you to do!
--Heidi ( turner_heidi at hotmail dot com ) on 3/6/2004; 10:54:20 AM

First of all I usually don't respond to things like this but I was impressed enough by this article to respond to it. Before I make my comment don't get me wrong. I think women, like men, have their place in ministry. I don't think one is above the other in any way, shape or form. I beileve we're all called to fulfill our destiny that God has ordained for each of us. But our destiny is just that; it's what God has ordained. Kathryn Coleman, I believe, fulfilled her destiny. So did Smith Wigglesworth, Amy Simple McPherson, Charle Finney and the many others throughout history. Our destiny has a basis. It's the Word of God, the written and the living Word of God. Let's face it, the Pastorial fraternity thing hasn't worked and never will. All it brings about is favortism and a powerless church. It makes no difference if it's a man or a woman. What makes a difference is if we're in God's perfect plan. As the people of God we need to get off the idea of "ministry" and what kind of great position we hold or should of held but can't cause we're held back. We were created to have fellowship with our loving father and thru that fellowship we have the true love and power of God to carry to the world. Lets all get on a right foundation.

Baruch Hashem, (Bless the Name)

Gary
--Gary Thompson ( Abbagary1 at aol dot com ) on 3/6/2004; 9:44:21 AM

Well put Rachelle, You have described the informal networking which is the key to the discrimination - in fact pretty much any discrimination - It;ll be nice when people acknowledge this and attempt to monitor their own behaviour
--becky ( rebeccabarkaway at fish dot co dot uk ) on 3/6/2004; 2:19:08 AM

thanks rachelle, for being so incredibly honest. it's hard to be real when the pressure is on; thanks for saying it anyway. we need so much more of this!
you inspire me.

jen
--jen lemen ( takoma dot mama at verizon dot net ) on 3/5/2004; 8:06:35 PM

Way not to sugar-coat the issues! Thank you so much. I like to think of myself as a guy who's totally on board with gender equity, but I still have a lot of blind spots (just ask my wife!) Thanks for the eye-opener.
--Craig Pelkey-Landes ( pelkeyland at enter dot net ) on 3/5/2004; 3:57:04 PM

Hey, Rachelle. You wrote a good, raw, description of the same issues we all face and feel as we follow the call and yet keep trying to walk in community and not run away, which is sure tempting a lot of the time. After doing this (and I'm married to the famous Steve!) for 25 years, one thing I have learned is that it helps to have a circle of sisters around you when you are out there on the front lines, some who are older, some who are carrying their own babies and chasing their own toddlers. You need each other to call out your gifts, speak truth to each other, listen to each other say both rational and irrational things, keep confidences, and say those words that help us all keep from stabbing our brothers with our words out of our deep frustration. I've walked with one such circle for most of those 25 years and I can say with truth that I can do what I do because God has called me and they stand by my side and I by theirs (they are leaders too), and because Steve loves me dearly and supports everything God has called me to.

And yeah, sometimes I want to scream too....
--Cindy Nicholson ( cindyn at evanstonvineyard dot org ) on 3/5/2004; 3:43:02 PM

and just when you think there's an even playing field - someone moves the goalposts!
R
--Ruth Dudley ( ruthd at dodo dot com dot au ) on 3/5/2004; 3:34:19 PM

Rachelle,
Thanks for sharing a glimpse into your story. You provide such tangible images which, I pray, might help all who care about women, men and “us” in our churches transcend women in ministry as “an issue” enabling us instead to see people in Christ, living in God’s relational reign.

And by the way, your keyboard sings.
Peace, dwight friesen
--Dwight Friesen ( connect at dwightfriesen dot com ) on 3/5/2004; 12:04:53 PM

Yes!!! As I leave the tiny church I've pastored for 10 years, I say a major 'amen' to Rachelle's well-described feelings. Controlled anger does have it's place and should be part of speaking to wrong stuff. I just recently realized that if a man had taken the bold stroke that I did (in responding to a women's parachurch ministry that was meeting in our fellowship room) when I asked them to find another place to meet because their inept and bad behavior was reflecting not only on themselves, their ministry, but ours....he would have been seen as a forceful, strong leader protecting the flock. I was condemned for having a 'jezebel' spirit....Yikes! I had resigned two weeks earlier from the pastorate. This is interesting, too.....just received a call from one of the older women reminding me of the cobwebs in the kitchen! Yup! We've a long way to go, but Jesus is leading the way!

Thanks, Rachelle!

Pastor Bonnie Emett
--Bonnie Emett ( bnlemett at adelphia dot net ) on 3/5/2004; 11:36:27 AM

Rachelle, Breathtaking word. Thanks. Too true.
--Kelly Bean ( Redwarior7 at aol dot com ) on 3/5/2004; 9:40:02 AM

Especially insightful. I can not tell you how much I long to hear more feminine voices like this. I wish we heard more voices that are more familiar with Olivia Saves the Circus than Len Sweet, know the stresses of child care. We will be a better community if we listen to the heart of what is said here. We must, we just must.

I blogged about how this article impacted my life recently...

http://www.e-church.com/Blog-detail.asp?EntryID=552&BloggerID=1
--Tim Bednar ( timbednar at e-church dot com ) on 3/5/2004; 9:06:15 AM

Well said, Rachelle.

A few years ago, I visited a church in the deep south. Strangely to me, I saw a church full of white people in attendance with the black people sitting in the three back rows of the church. There are no laws that require black people to do this anymore, but I guess traditions die hard.
-- Carolyn O'Connor ( wocon at telis dot org ) on 3/4/2004; 3:34:53 PM

perfect rachelle, thanks so much for taking the time to put these thoughts down, we need to hear so much more of this perspective. never be silenced and keep on being prophetic, we love and need to hear more from you.
--erickeck ( eric at erickeck dot com ) on 3/4/2004; 11:12:01 AM

Sounds like it isn't worth it. It's hard not to think of the thousands of male pastors leaving ministry each year to become insurance agents. Burnout and mad are a place to live . . . unless we stay lovesick in the beauty of Jesus. It's about Him and not our professional ambitions.

There's no doubt we're behind the curve on releasing women to use their gifts. We need a paradigm where women don't need to find surrogate parents, even temporary ones (daycare or day-long babysitter), for their children so they can serve the church.

hmmm . . . that house church thing . . .
--David Wornom ( levskyhome at aol dot com ) on 3/4/2004; 9:53:23 AM