Do you have the nagging feeling that maybe church should be a little different? If you do, then you may want to read Reclaiming God’s Original Intent For The Church. (Navpress) Perfect for church planters and those in smaller churches, Wes Roberts and Glenn Marshall demonstrate their belief that church is to be a community of disciples of Jesus Christ, authentically bearing the witness of the Spirit by proclaiming and demonstrating the Kingdom of God in word and deed.

Wes, an author and founder of Leadership Design Group, currently lives in Parker, Colorado. You can check out his blog at http://wesroberts.typepad.com/wes/. Glenn pastors Park Avenue Community Church in Somerdale, New Jersey. Both of these guys have a heart for the church, emerging or otherwise. I asked them a few questions about the book and their ‘take’ on the emerging church.

Why write this book? What were the motivating factors? Who did you have in mind?

Glenn: As a small church pastor there are many expressed expectations that tend to wear us all down – expectations that are placed on us from the established church culture. I wanted to write something that would help to explain where we are, why almost nothing seems to be working, and give some hope in the midst of all the chaos.

Wes: Uniquely, NavPress extended the invitation for the book to be written to bring encouragement for the pastor in the smaller place. As we got into writing the book, it became a book for pastoral workers in any place. By the time we went to final edit it had evolved into a book for anyone interested in the future health and life of the church and any of its leadership…full time or not.

Most Americans think bigger is better. You say, "Nothing is wrong with a mega-church being mega-sized. We need churches of all sizes." Is size arbitrary? What need does the mega-church meet? What about the small church?

Glen: I don’t really know the answers to these questions – and I’m not sure it matters. The issue is not size. The issues are: discipleship, community, authenticity, Spirituality and engagement in the Mission of God. If the church is being and doing these things, I don’t think that size really matters.

Wes: Though I do agree with Glenn that I don’t know all the answers to these questions, I think size does matter. We need to go all the way back to where two or three are gathered together and learn together to listen, to eavesdrop, on the Trinity. What is the Father saying…what is the Son saying…what is the Spirit saying…about whatever?

I think some small churches can be way arrogant about being small. Same for mega churches. Too many mega places produce spectator Christians. There is more opportunity for community, intergenerational community, in a smaller place.

What does the label ‘emerging church’ mean to you?

Glenn: Reality is that our present environment is deconstructing the Christendom paradigm and all that went with it. The ‘emerging church’ is (to steal a title from Loren B. Meade) "the once and future church." It is that part of the church which has begun to take seriously the continuing marginalization of the church. It is the "Post" church, dealing with issues of what it means to be the church in a post-Christendom, post-foundational, post-modern world.

Wes, what words would you use to describe this new category of church?

Radical, revolutionary, risky, refocusing, renewing (pardon all the ‘r’ words), reforming are the first words that come to mind. We are called to a radical faith…not a tame faith. It seems that the emerging church is much more willing to rethink the gospel, mission, theology, faith and practice than the current settled-in evangelical/fundamental/church-life-as-usual-so-please-don’t-rock-the-boat kind of places that take up most of the space in churches today. Much needs to be reshaped for today’s world, and the world that is fast coming our way

Emergent types are much more concerned with relationships, being, caring for the towns in which they live, social justice. There seems to be a much greater willingness to explore, try, fail, get up and go again in the emerging church. The commitment with these new churches to live with people the gospel…not tell them or argue them into the Kingdom…is a great hallmark of what needs to be happening. I like the phrase that is emerging of embodied evangelism (thank you Brian McLaren and Robert Webber!).

Both of you seem to have a foot in the emerging church and the established church. Do you think bridges can be built between the two? What will be hardest about this work? Do you see yourselves as doing this?

Glenn: I believe such bridges can be built. The emerging church can reform the established church. But I also believe that the emerging church must be informed by the established church. We are one body – not two. I hope that the book we have written will be used to build this bridge.

Wes: Through a sincere, radical overhaul and increased heart for young emerging leaders I’ve been challenged at a deep spirit level to not just hold those 40 and under as emerging leaders. I’m a wild, old man of 62 and have never been more on fire or passionate for the future of the church. Be nice, happy, pleasant Christians. NO! Be radical. Be counter-cultural. Be willing to be eaten by lions. I can only hope and pray I am and that I would be a tasty meal.

Glenn: The hardest thing to be overcome is our own selfishness and stubbornness. I fear that on both sides of the issue there is a belief driven by our consumer attitude that the church exists for me – to meet my needs – to be the kind of church that I like. As long as we are thinking this way, we fail to be guided by the Spirit of God. We are driven by our own desires and selfish ambition.

This is why discipleship is so vitally important. Unless we are all surrendered to the Triune God, we will not make much headway. So we must begin at the beginning. We must be and we must be making, disciples of Jesus.

Wes: Can we become, again, genuine learners from each other across the generations? We need these emerging leaders to tell us about the changes in our culture…to interpret the language…the films…the books…the music, etc. Any leader of any age needs to have a mentoring mind set that will listen before speaking, and be willing to just hang out and have conversations that create a curiosity. We need to be about sharing our stories…the crap, and the few moments of glory. Every leader needs to be pouring themselves into others…and releasing others into their futures…just as Jesus did with the disciples in the Gospels.

I long for stronger, better, wider bridges to be built between the generations…if that’s even possible. I urge the younger leaders to hearken to Paul’s mentoring words to Timothy…(from The Message): "Don’t let anyone put you down because you’re young. Teach believers with your life: by word, demeanor, by love, by faith, by integrity." And I urge those of us a little older in the faith to be ready to lay our lives down as mentors authentically blessing and being for these younger women and men in ways that will creatively unleash, astonish and empower them with our Triune God’s grace.

Every generation of church leaders have weak spots, what do you see as the weak spots for the emerging church and its leaders?

Wes: Right now I’m enjoying one of the finest sacred and delightful opportunities I’ve had in 39 years of ministry, mentoring a number of women and men. One guy, who spent eight years in the US Coast Guard before heading for seminary, I’ve asked to come up with a new term for mentoring. That seems to be one of the weak spots for the emerging church.

Unfortunately, most of my generation does not know how to mentor well because it never happened with them. The models of mentoring, I believe, are also too narrow for the ages to come. But that, in my book, is no excuse. Christianity is based on relationship, together, focused on the original relationship, the Trinity. We must be about conversations and connections that entice and encourage more intentionally in emerging and existing churches.

Pardon me for almost preaching for a moment, but we need each other in the church more than most will admit. A lot of emerging leaders seem a bit uncertain about that. I understand that there is a huge caution concerning "olders" being allowed into their thinking processes, hopes and dreams for the church. We need each other to "be" the Kingdom…not just "do" the Kingdom.

Glen: There seems to be a tendency to forge ahead without any concern for who or what is being left behind. There is a sense in which I understand this. There are things about the established church that are disheartening and make one want to throw in the towel. I can understand why some have wanted to "give up" on the established church but I believe we must learn to be patient with one another. This patience and tolerance with one another is a matter of our witness to the world.

Another danger I see within the emerging church is a latent cynicism of the familiar ways of doing things. I feel that cynicism myself – and I have to fight it.

Theological direction is another need. I believe that eschatology is going to play a huge role in the direction of the emerging church. We must somehow rescue eschatology from the "Left Behind" crowd. I find it almost inconceivable that that brand of eschatology is still so popular.

Leadership has been one of the championed causes for the last 10-20 years. Do you think this emphasis was a good thing? What have been the benefits and the drawbacks?

Wes: Though championed, top down leadership has been tried and found wanting in the context of the church (and many other places). Servant leadership has been bantered about as what needs to be happening but rarely has happened because of the number of ministries where people are worn out, bruised, beaten, and wounded. Their strengths and gifts, given by our God, have not been championed.

Leadership is MUCH more than accomplishing goals. It is being a temporary agent of the Holy Spirit to help build into men and women and to call forth the vision that Almighty God has for them. That has not been done well in recent decades.

Glen: Leadership is vitally important for the church. But it is essential to understand that Jesus is our model of leadership. The CEO model of leadership has shaped much of what has been taught about leadership. We need to recapture servant leadership. Two books have helped me – Henri Nouwen’s In the Name of Jesus: Reflections on Christian Leadership and Lesslie Newbigin’s Mission In Christ’s Way. I am constantly returning to these two little books to correct me and get me back in line.

Thanks to Mel Gibson, Jerry Jenkins, and Tim LaHaye, Christians have been in the news a lot. What does the world think of the church?

Glen: Phillip Yancey asks a question that would be good for all of us to ponder. He asks (and I hope I’m getting this right): "If Jesus was a friend of sinners, why does the world see us as the enemy of sinners?" That question points out what the world thinks of us. They see us as their enemy and I think that is often our doing – our fault. That’s why we say that listening is so important. A lot of the criticism leveled against us is valid.

Wes: Most of the un-churched and non-churched people I know think the church doesn’t give a damn except for promoting itself, its programs and its purposes of any length. I think the world thinks that all Christians are right-wing conservatives and that no one can be a socially caring, justice informed liberal, politically, and be a Christian. I think the world is amused with how often the talk does not line up with the walk. I think the world sees little to no difference between themselves and this entity called church.

You pose this question in the book: "How can our churches demonstrate the love of God to our neighbors in ways that don’t reek of recruitment but rather demonstrate our real concern for them?"

Glen: We must learn to be servants, not only to one another in the community of faith, but also to the world, serving with a sense of reckless abandon not worrying or fretting about what we are going to get out of it or even if the institution will survive. This will take a radical trust in God – a trust not only to give us the outcome but a trust in the outcome he gives us. In other words, the outcome He gives may not be what we had in mind. Will that be okay with us or will we rely on our techniques to give us the outcome that we want; one that will keep us secure in our jobs, our positions and our retirement plans?

Wes: Jesus came to live among us. We must live among the people where they are and stop asking them to come first and live with us inside the walls we call a church.

You make a case for significant change in the church and yet you seem to back off from being too confrontational. If Christendom is crumbling and the church needs a new paradigm for worship and service won’t it require pain and confrontation? What should we do?

Glenn: We are going to need to be confrontational, but we should do this in a way that people will listen. I hope that the way we have presented things will encourage others who have not thought about such matters to wake up to the reality of our present situation. But the fact remains that not all will wake up. Not everyone wants to wake up. Most of us have a vested interest in the old ways of the Christendom paradigm. And so some are going down with the ship.

What we should do is speak the truth in love – and pray – and trust God. We need living examples of people that are willing to pay the price – to make the sacrifice - of moving in this new (older) direction. It does no good to talk about these things if we are not willing to live them out.

Wes: If a person is truly going to be willing to change…then pain is a part of the process. Way back in the dark ages when I was in college, one of the valuable things I learned from a psychology professor is that you confront at the level of authentic relationship you have with a person/group. It has been our strong hope that the book will be invitational not just confrontational.

How difficult will this be for most pastors and leaders?

Glenn: I suspect that for some this will be very difficult. Much of the problem is that we have taught people to think this way. We have recruited them using this model and they expect business as usual. They want to be a part of the Church-of-what’s-happening-now. So the problem is not just with the pastors.

Wes: Realistically I don’t think many established pastors will do much changing…in order to survive to their retirement. This will best change from the experiential education of new church leaders on the grow…both women and men.

What changes have you seen in your own ministry in recent years?

Wes: Oh, wow…got a week?!! I love hanging, listening to, and learning from younger emerging leaders as well as from older leaders who are thanking God for their brokenness and desire to be walking in new, unproven directions. I’ve been through three huge ministry crucibles in the past eight years that have been of significantly painful, life-giving blessings. Four years ago I almost lost my wife through a huge physical trauma. In my putrid thinking, God was way silent. When I stopped ranting and raving, got off my pity-pot parade and stood still…whoa!…I found I was still in His presence. He was silent for a long, long time but I could hear Him breathing. Our own brilliant and precious daughter is not inclined towards our God at this point in her life. Living with her in the midst of her unbelief and struggles has given me a larger than life desire to creatively and authentically care for, encourage, and live among the generations that are coming along. I want to live with people…not in front of them.

Glen: When I first came to my present ministry, I was caught up in the church growth stuff. We had limited success. But I kept pushing. I sincerely regret what I put our people through. Reading missional church books started a monumental shift in my thinking – one that I am grateful for.

What concerns me now are those five areas that I have previously mentioned: discipleship, community, authenticity, Spirituality and engagement in the Mission of God. I am trying to learn to trust God for the fruit of this of ministry.

Finally, what are you most encouraged and excited about when you look to the future?

Wes: As already mentioned I have the high, holy and sacred privilege of mentoring an extraordinary grouping of men and women, in person, on the phone, and through "blogland." It is from what I see our God being allowed to do in and through them that gives me great hope. My daily prayer for them, each one, is that their tribe will continue to increase. How I love them!!!

Glen: I believe that the next century is going to be a time of great excitement and upheaval. I am excited about all of this because God is at work. This is his doing. So we need to embrace what the Lord is bringing about in our world – a time for Christianity to shine, to be real, to be genuine.

I’ve met so many young leaders that really humble me – people that have it so much more together than I ever did. I am so thankful to the Lord for them.

And I see a convergence happening. Whether it’s the writings of Richard Foster, Thomas Oden, or the Emergent Church movement, there seems to be an underlying expressed possibility of the different, separated factions of the church moving together. I long to see that day.