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Taxonomies, like the one you have given, is very helpful for discussion and you are nuanced enough to let the spectrum take shape as it really does. This sort of thing helps all of us, as long as we keep the main thing the main thing.
--Scot McKnight ( smcknight at northpark dot edu ) on 4/20/2005; 7:19:32 PM

chris- totally. Link away!

and yeah- it tends (at this point) to be largely white and middle class... but less so all the time it seems. diversity is creeping in around the edges, especially in those emerging communities situated in largely urban spaces...
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 4/20/2005; 5:06:10 PM

Bob--
Good article and discussion. I'm considering a blog on my personal defense of "emergent" in light of all the recent criticism. If I move forward, would it be okay to post a link to your "definition?"

All--
What about racial reconciliation? I still see the EC as a mostly WASPy undertaking. How do we involve those of other races into the conversation, or are they already engaged? (BTW, I'm white and of European descent.)
--chris doyle ( doyle_cm at yahoo dot com ) on 4/20/2005; 10:35:34 AM

Dustin,

I'll second your previous comment, but... those of us involved with emergent village are not trying to create an association or 'emergent' churches.

By our own definition, "Emergent is a growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders seeking to love our world in the Spirit of Jesus Christ."

So, we've never claimed to be a movement; we're just people becoming friends with one another. We share a passion for understanding the Missio Dei (Mission of God) in our lives and in the lives of our families, friends, faith communities, and beyond...

So, it seems odd that people are now saying either you 'are' or you 'are not' an emergent church. I've never thought of friendships as either 'yes' they are a friend or 'no' they are not a friend.

There are always varying degrees of friendships in real life. Thus, a 'yes' or 'no' label doesn't really work for describing these friendships either.

Blessings,
randy
--randy buist ( rbuist at watersedge dot tv ) on 4/14/2005; 10:42:44 PM

It seems to me that all of the great traditions stemmed out of a rediscovery of the heart and passion of the gospel in different cultural contexts and historical moments. This is where we find ourselves. Take Wesley and Luther, were they emergent at one moment in time? Is much of what we see today in "emergent" stuff just a desperate attempt to bring real life, relationship and Jesus into our faith? Seems to me that anybody with an "emergent" heart is just wanting to be with people who really want to feel and be and live with Jesus.

Are the three categories you mention the heart of the emergent tradition that is being developed in these beautiful and turbulent times?

Ken
--Ken Curry ( kcurry at gracechapel dot org ) on 4/13/2005; 9:47:23 AM

oh- totally. I fully expect my children to reform the church I leave them and continue the process of emergence. I'd be disappointed if they didn't!

(In fact, at our little pub church, we often walk down that road, mentally.
Dad! Why can't you ever dress up and wear a tie to church?
Can we turn on some lights in here?!?
Geez... not more incense!")



Semper Reformada, eh?
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 4/13/2005; 12:11:06 AM

The word emergent is not a word of today only, its a word that encompasses our history, present and future. Emerging is not static but a constant evolution and journey. We are no longer interested or convinced that one model, philosophy or theology is complete and final. The church has emerged in the past and to say it is only happening today would be, well silly I think. It's just we have discovered a terminology which helps, us possibly (I say possibly) to understand how the church is in change and transition once again. I just hope we are beginning to embrace each generation with opennes and a listening heart instead of once again setting things into a mold like we have done in the past, otherwise our many great grandchildren may be in state of "emergence" once again.
--Dave ( dakn_boys at hotmail dot com ) on 4/12/2005; 11:47:32 PM

bob i loved your article but there is one thing i would like to add. i find it very interesting that most articles defining "emergent" are written by those who have come out of a Willow Creek style church. they are defining emergent more as a reaction. i am only 20 years old and my church backround ranges from baptist to anglican to youth-movement charismatic. i tend to define emergent as an idealistc notion of what church should be. and i just showed my age with my idealism. but i think my generation and generations to come will continually redefine the "movement" because it will be all they know...and maybe even a post-emergent church? oh no...now i am getting ahead of myself.
--Ben Rey ( ben dot c dot rey at gmaik dot com ) on 4/12/2005; 1:17:56 PM

I've always considered emergent the methods of expressions (worship, style, tastes, types of missional engagement, etc.) while postmodern churches are re-examining the principals (theology, truth, interpretation). As a correlation many in the emergent movement are also postmodern. This is why Acts 29 churches are considered emergent but maintain theological roots in historical orthodoxy.
--Drew Goodmanson ( drew at goodmanson dot com ) on 4/11/2005; 5:25:23 PM

Helpful Rick.

On the issue of leadership, particularly a less mechanical and formal structure in favor of something chaordic, see Richard Ascough, "Chaos Theory and Paul's ORganizational Style." He makes good use of writers like Wheatley and Dee Hock.

http://www.christianleaders.org/JRL/Fall2002/ascough.htm
--Leonard Hjalmarson ( lenhjal at telus dot net ) on 4/11/2005; 1:29:14 PM

Rick
a helpful contribution to the conversation, as is obvious from the following discussion! And while definition may not be important to some, or may be considered a modern technique by others, it really helps to have a prism to capture the spectrum and show the colors.. however much they may change and evolve in the future.
--Leonard Hjalmarson ( lenhjal at telus dot net ) on 4/11/2005; 1:00:08 PM

Pithy, to the point and reflective of what I see on a larger scale...

I think the level at which people are emerging depends heavily upon their own journey, and the contextualization of that journey into their mission field.

Methodology seems like a first step because it is often easier to change forms first.

Philosophy oftens comes next when people begin to rethink what they are doing and realize there is more to it than just changing forms.

Theological reflection takes more work and requires changing, often long-established patterns and/or ways of thinking so it tends to be the last of the three many encounter.

Having said that, I am absolutely convinced that who we are (being)and what we do (doing) is most often a result of our theology.

In the long term, the great need then is to be open minded about our theology emerging with the culture and the church.
--john ( john at resourcefoundation dot org ) on 4/8/2005; 12:23:10 PM

David:

Thank you for your questions regarding the emerging thrust and the seemingly bad habit that all "movements" since the third century have tripped over: why the need to hold onto the structures (i.e., titles) of what has been a total failure in truly representing, in a very practical way, the Early Church?

As I stated before, I see encouraging signs from the pomo crowd but, at least in my opinion, for the most part there's not a whole lot of difference between the IC and the pomos, particularly regarding a real manifestation of God to the extent that the world stands up and takes notice.
--Ricky ( rickyroubique at yahoo dot com ) on 4/6/2005; 12:03:46 AM

Glad to see you back in print Bob! Seems like you encapsulated the big three questions of emerging church discussion: methodology, philosophy of ministry (discipleship and teaching), and theology. Some people phrase these different but there they are.

Here's my question: at what point does God show up in such a way that the world sits up and notices something's afoot? Or do we live in a 2-decker universe where the transcendently beautiful God who does shocking stuff is out there somewhere, and we continue right along in an emerging churchworld where angels don't visit, the lame don't walk, -- postmod or not -- we and our buds are in as much control as the modernist church leaders we don't want to be like?

I'm tired after a long day so maybe that didn't come out right.
--David Wornom ( levskyhome at aol dot com ) on 4/4/2005; 9:07:23 PM

The conversation/ defining process is helpful to those of us who are still trying to figure things out. Those of you in areas of the US where the emergent conversation is old news have begun to take for granted what others of us are only now daring to consider. Don't stop. What may seem like navel gazing to you, is informative to me.
--cindy ( csgbryan at aol dot com ) on 4/1/2005; 9:26:09 AM

Bob:

Again, thanks for sharing your heart which, I believe, is much closer to mine than we may think.

While we can certainly discuss what constitutes a "spiritual leader" according to scripture, let me say that it is my conviction that leadership in the Church was never intended to be placed upon the shoulders of just one or a few souls (i.e., the "five-fold ministry") but rather on those who exemplies the character of Christ.

Therefore, without getting into a protracted debate over titles and roles, let me say that my understanding of spiritual leadership is character-dependent and not gift-based. I say this because many people have gifts but lack the strength of the character it takes to properly respect and operate in a particularly gifting that best represents the character of God.

We see the devastating affects of this all of the time in "churches" where the gifting of a man is emphasized (i.e., teaching, preaching, singing, etc.) over the quiet, lasting strength of character. The result? A paper-thin veneer of Christ that buckles when heat is applied (i.e., "A mile wide but an inch deep").

I believe the scriptural emphasis is rather placed on how evident is the character of Christ genuinely manifested in a person's life that draws people to him/her, basically creating a "leader" who leads (or influences) from behind.

Saying that, and after reading Todd's piece, I see the danger of what my intentions can do or rather not do, for the Kingdom of God. My deepest desire is for God's people, beginning with me, to truly grasp and never let go of what our First Century brothers/sisters had. And so, I will become less intentional in order to avoid the fruitless wonder of "tension."

God bless you. I look forward to sharing with you in the future.
--Ricky ( rickyroubique at yahoo dot com ) on 3/31/2005; 8:12:48 PM

Ricky,

naw... that's just what you assume I assume! :)

I think the word "leadership" in english has so much baggage that we have to come up with some other metaphors...

I for one am in favor of the pastor as spiritual director
as opposed to
manager
CEO
administrator
decision maker
person-at-whom-the-buck-stops


That having been said- I'm also sensitive to those that are cautioning the emergent church not to throw away babies with bathwater.

It's pretty clear from scripture that there's someone within the church to whom our obedience is due, right?
("Obey your spiritual leaders and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they know they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this joyfully and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit."- Heb 13:17)

Now- my goal is that in the areas in which I lead (and my emergent-ness has led me to give up many areas I used to claim as a pastor), I want to lead by influence first and foremost.

I think the model we are moving away from leads by authority first and foremost.

To me, that's a measure of last resort.

If my influence in my community is so lacking that I have to rely on authority, I'm in trouble and my community is as well...

I see a hallmark of leadership in an emerging context as being moving back to influential leadership and away from authoritarian leadership... but still having leadership.

See my post under Todd Hunters article (just below this one) as well.
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 3/31/2005; 7:36:00 PM

Bob:

I appreciate your thoughts and I do believe that you represent what I hope to be a growing number of "leaders" who view their "role" (as you put it) as being one of being more considerate of others' ideas and criticisms.

However, I also believe that your response is exactly the point I'm trying to make. By saying that there will "always be pastors..." you assume that it is the pastors who are to be out front or "leading" the church. This is what I meant by saying that the reformers of old only reformed SOME things that bugged them about the Catholic Church. And because they were only reached back an "arm's length" in "reforming" the institution.

What I am saying is that if we would reach back and join hands with others in the past who have reached back and then others who have done so, we may find ourselves truly reaching AND touching the very Early Church itself recapture that profound simplicity that made them more effective than any organization since.

While I agree that there will always be pastors, teachers, et al, I don't agree that they will by some perceived right to be considered "leaders," but rather an acknowledgement of those gifts which ALL of God's people have and are utilized as He deems and when He deems.

Finally, an organization does not a church make, meaning that when Christians come together the Church may or not be present as well. It depends on the purpose of the meeting and whether the Body as a whole is involved, which may mean that the person "in authority" may and will change as the Spirit leads.

As one who is in the role of a "pastor" of a fellowship, I know that my "role" is to eventually work myself out of a visible, looked to "job" by encouraging an environment where the Spirit is the sole Leader and we are all His followers.

As I said, I look forward to seeing if the emergent thrust is going to hold onto certain perceived titles/roles or whether we will be willing to reach much further past the actions of Luther and experience being the church, with or without "leaders."

I look forward to further discussing this issue with you and I appreciate your heart and thoughts.
--Ricky ( rickyroubique at yahoo dot com ) on 3/31/2005; 5:43:01 PM

Ricky...

Yes- a big part of what the emergent conversation will contribute to future generations is a reshaping of our ecclesiology and the ideas of hierarchy, etc.

That having been said- we'll always have pastors, we'll always have teachers- they may not always run things the way they have in the past, but as long as the Holy Spirit continues to give gifts in those areas, the "role" will follow to some extent.

The trick is to make the role more closely overlay the gift.

For example- I knew a pastor that made all the final approvals on graphic design and publicity for their church? Why? Because he was in charge... Biblically necessary or dependency creating?

Let pastors be pastors, is my motto. Let them shepherd and teach. There are others who can be responsible to "run" things. (Acts 6)

In our community, I try to teach and step back and let the community decide how we live all that out. Yeah- sometimes, the elders are still "making decisions." But that doesn't happen in a vaccuum- we have a very public dialogue among the community on our forum (a great technology!). We've told ourselves- "If we ever find ourselves trying to figure out how we can 'sell' our people on anything, we're in trouble."

Sometimes leadership is about stepping back and letting the church be the church...

sorry- kind of got rambling there...
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 3/31/2005; 5:19:27 PM

Great insights, I am anabaptist, but believe in the death penalty, capitalism, the Iraq war is ok for a short war, and charismatic. I may not be your normal anabaptist but I consider myself one. Who totally agrees with anything 100šnyway that says you should agree with. Who draws the boundaries anymore. I guess it is everyone.

Great Fun

Tim
--Timothy Wright ( tim at twright dot co dot uk ) on 3/31/2005; 4:23:35 PM

Quote:

"They take to heart Doug Pagitt's words- 'If you want to honor the Reformers, don't just say what they said... do what they did.'"

Excellent article and quote from Doug. As I've studied the emergent thrust I see many promising signs, the most important of which is a definite intention to look back while moving forward. Many of the practices employed by these communities are seen as an attempt to recapture the spirit of the past, one that is closer to the church as it appears in scripture.

However, one of the areas where I think both the reformers and the emergent thrust has ignored is the area of structure, i.e., heirarchial positions and the designation of "clergy."

While there is a much-appreciated move to become more "chilled" in their meetings, the structure is still present, albeit not as "in your face" as the institutionalized church practices, but still present.

Perhaps the theological discussion will remedy this, perhaps not. Time will tell whether this emergent thrust is a definite AND continuing move to recapture the essence/practices/effectiveness of the Early Church, or whether it will be just "institutionalized church lite."

It is in the thologicial area where these areas must be debated because it's far more than methodology or philosophy but actually how we see ourselves in the Body of Christ.

I would certainly like to be involved in this discussion.
--Ricky ( rickyroubique at yahoo dot com ) on 3/31/2005; 4:15:40 PM

dude, you wrote what i have been thinking for a while - very cool - thanks :) - john
--john o'keefe ( jxpxus at yahoo dot com ) on 3/30/2005; 2:41:18 AM

I think you touched on some very important life lines for the continued reformation of the church, and ultimately the next great Spiritual Awakening in Western Civilization.
I have often witnessed a focus on a particular expression or lack of expression because of our personal experience while being brought up in ministry.
Your examples of each of the three threads, Methodological, Ministry Philosophy, and Theological Mapping (my phrase for Theological conversation you mentioned) have each emerged from a perceived need during a specific time in the development of the Western Church.
I hope in the approaching constructive phase of the post-modern church emergent community we find the art and rhythm of enfolding these three character traits into one.
As I was reading your article it came to my mind that three cords weaved together is stronger than one cord on its own.
--john caravalho ( john at interactivechurch dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 11:35:10 PM

Ahh... I think you may be right. Good insight!

I guess the question would be, how did they become so? By taking what they had, and reforming it, it would seem.

At some point, reforming became Reformed.

At some point, I'm sure emerging will become Emerged, and we'll have to start the process again...
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergrenlife dot org ) on 3/29/2005; 7:30:31 PM

'Reformed' and 'Orthodox' and 'Lutheran' aren't just labels--they are historic Christian traditions, living communities that don't just connect with those in the present but also those in the past. They aren't just made of theology but also involve habits of spirituality, ecclesiology, as well as shared history and memory.

It seems to me that the third group of emergent churches you mention (despite all the aesthetic borrowing from historic sources) does not want to inhabit and reform any particular Christian tradition but rather wants to form a whole new one. Of course that can happen. New traditions have been formed recently (Wesleyan, Pentacostal) but my--what an incredibly ambitious undertaking!
--Tim Keller ( pastor at redeemer dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 7:08:43 PM

'Reformed' and 'Orthodox' and 'Lutheran' aren't just labels, they are historic Christian traditions, living communities that don't just connect with those in the present but also those in the past. They aren't just made of theology but also spirituality, ecclesiology, and shared history.

It seems sometimes to me that the third group of emergent churches you mention (despite all the aesthetic borrowing from historic sources) does not want to inhabit and reform any particular Christian tradition but rather wants to form a whole new one. Of course that may be necessary. New traditions have been formed recently (Wesleyan, Pentacostal) but my--what an incredibly ambitious undertaking.
--Tim Keller ( pastor at redeemer dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 6:39:05 PM

Perhaps Emergent is like pornography. While you're unable to define it, you're pretty sure you know it when you see it.
--Vaughn Thompson ( vthompson at gmail dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 4:21:58 PM

I read ya Bob. That's cool. Again, i hope i didn't come off wrong, those are just some things i've been thinking. i enjoyed what you have written and find it interesting and helpful.
--Dustin ( dustin at forefrontchurch dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 1:42:31 PM

I read ya Bob. That's cool. Again, i hope i didn't come off wrong, those are just some things i've been thinking. i enjoyed what you have written and find it interesting and helpful.
--Dustin ( dustin at forefrontchurch dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 1:36:56 PM

warning- rambling, stream of consciousness comment ahead...

I totally agree :)

In fact, in our own church community, I have begun to rarely use the term, because many people are not involved in this part of the conversation- they just want a place to heal, worship and serve Christ. In a way, the language of emergence somtimes gets in the way.

That having been said- I still feel a benefit in bringing a bit more... uh.. shall we say "solidity" to the conversation. If only for the sake of history and if only to help people see that there's more to "reconsider" than simply methodology...

No- being "emergent" isn't important... being followers of Christ is.

I guess, maybe, this part of the conversation is for those of us who like to define and compare and contrast... you know, church history geeks. :)

We like charts and placing ourselves on continuums... yes- it's navel-gazing, but hey- it's fun. I admit to looking at and occasionally tweaking the wikipedia definition of the emerging church...

again- not trying to point a finger and say "You're not genuinely emergent!"... just trying to say "I think these are the three main areas of consideration in this conversation"


I'm ready, and willing for everyone to say "This isn't something we should spend time on." Just some thoughts I wanted to put out there...
--bob hyatt ( bob at evergreenlife dot org ) on 3/29/2005; 12:19:53 PM

I guess i'm just frustrated at all the effort that is put into defining a thing. All these articles are going out saying, "a definition of emergent churches", "what is emergent?" And the problem is, everyone's definition is different. It seems a lot of these attempts are merely trying to create a definition rather than looking at what is happening and defining it. But in the midst of that, i think what you said was very helpful Bob. And with that definition in mind I see very very few churches that would be Emergent. Obviously, that is a broad generalization from a man who hasn't been to every city in the country but I would love to see what is happening at these communities of faith. Anyone have some websites of true emergent churches I could check out?

On a second thought, i definitely see my church as fitting these three characteristics but at the same time I have no desire to call it "Emergent" or configure myself with the movement. I'm not being harsh here, i'm just saying the desire isn't there. I guess I don't see the benefit of coming out and saying, "we're an emergent church". If we have a hard enough time defining it for ourselves, it really means nothing to the people we are telling it to here in the city.
--Dustin ( dustin at forefrontchurch dot com ) on 3/29/2005; 9:37:53 AM