This article is inspired by the lyrics of Will Smith's "Ms. Holy Roller" from his CD "Lost and Found". The lyrics to the rap precede the article.

To better express my point of view, I will quote Donald Miller:

What an amazing article Brian. As an observer of the growing fundamentalism in America, from Britain, I can really understand the points that both Will Smith and Brian are making. The main feeling is that many Christians believe strongly in being an ambassador for God but are not interested in force-feeding potential listeners their version of Christianity unlike many Christians today. This is to say that the 'Ms Holy Roller' types have become too involved in trying to convert the world, that they are forgetting that the best way of promoting Christ is by actions, not by harassment. This fundamentalism leads to the negative image that the term 'Christianity' recieves. Furthermore it doesn't help that the president has become a beacon of this type of Christianity and carries out his own crusades, whatever the agenda really is. This not only sheds a negative light on people, but America, globally.
--Tadeusz Kosciuszko ( demodonk08 at hotmail dot com ) on 1/13/2007; 7:31:39 PM

You got the nerve to use will smith as a advocate to the christian faith? Are you kidding me? That is insane he is a known swinger. A known swinger and his wife is in a heavy metal band that operates with the band throwing up signs that give honor to SATAN? We use his words to do that? Will smith is an advocate for HIP HOP which in itself denies Jesus. Before you say that will smith words should be considered consider the source it's coming from. Nobody likes to believe they're wrong. Not even will smith. Now I pray for him to do right but that is a terrible thing that people get into when they are exalted to high position. We all think we need to do what's right and read our bibles and OPERATE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. We will succeed only in that way. Amen.
-- Steven ( Mrblaque at cox dot net ) on 9/30/2006; 6:49:00 PM

Hello Brian, let me say in closing the deep respect I have for you. To raise two children on your own, is more than many of us can handle. I know God has a special place for the three of you in His heart as you have in mine. I'll pray for you.
dan paul
--dan paul ( dlpaul2002 at hotmail dot com ) on 4/29/2005; 1:42:19 PM

This is my final reply on this topic.

“I heard him say this, but it didn’t register. Christianity as the enemy of the gospel? What could he possibly mean? He picked up my confusion and stopped walking. He motioned for me to come over and sit on a mossy old fallen tree parallel to the path. I looked back–we had come a long way–and then I leaned and looked forward–we still had a long way to go. I was getting tired of both walking and thinking. As we caught our breath, Neo said, ‘I hope I’m not upsetting you too much. I think that last bit about Christianity too often being the enemy of the gospel really threw you.’”

“I said yes, it had. To explain he told me a story about his summer vacation back in June. He had gone to Seattle, where his parents lived. One day he took the ferry out to Bainbridge Island, just to look around. On the way back he got talking to a man who was, like him, enjoying the beautiful Seattle skyline from the rail on the top level of the ferry. They got talking, and somehow the subject of religion came up. When Neo identified himself as a Christian, the man identified himself as Jewish and then added, with no malice, ‘I watched one of your cable TV stations recently. To be honest with you, it made Christians look pretty stupid.’ Neo said that he hoped the man wouldn’t judge all Christians by a few kooks with a cable station. The man said, again, with no malice, ‘Actually, I’ve thought about it a good deal. On the whole, I think Christianity is a force for evil in the world.’”

“Then the man added, ‘I grew up in a small town in Indiana. We were the only Jewish family surrounded by Christians. It was a terrible way to grow up. We were never accepted; we were always outsiders. The only contact beyond superficialities was when some of the fundamentalists would tell me I was going to hell; they hoped to convert me. Obviously, they had the opposite effect. I travel a lot, and wherever I go, it seems that Christians are creating in-groups and putting everybody else in out-groups. Of course, the Holocaust is the most extreme example of that. It’s too bad, really, because I have studied Jesus, and I think he was a great Jewish prophet, maybe the greatest who ever lived. But Christianity and Jesus don’t seem to have too much in common, as far as I can see.’”

“I asked Neo how he replied to the man. ‘What could I say? I told him, sadly, that there was too much truth to his statement.’ That’s all? I asked. ‘Yes. But when he said goodbye, he was genuinely warm to me. He walked with me down the gangplank and all the way to the street. He was catching a plane to Hawaii, and so I helped him carry his bags and accompanied him across the street from the ferry to the taxi stand. When he said goodbye, if felt like we were old friends already. So I hope I represented a different kind of Christianity to him.’”

“‘Didn’t you feel obligated to in some way defend the faith to him?’ I asked.

“‘Why, Daniel? Why defend the indefensible? The man already thought well of Jesus–that’s the important thing. I just wanted to give him further evidence that the Spirit of Jesus is not behind the craziness he saw on TV or the exclusionism he experienced as a child or the horror he saw in the Holocaust. Sure, he made something of an overstatement, but there was too much truth in it to brush it away. The best thing I felt I could do was simply to agree with him. After all, in the gospel itself, Jesus had to rebuke the disciples on several occasions, telling them they weren’t of the right spirit. If it happened then, why be surprised that it happens down through history? Christianity isn’t salvation, that’s for sure! The good news is.’” (A New Kind of Christian, Brian McLaren p. 63-63).

“Jesus is being lost in a religion bearing His name. People are being lost because they can not reconcile Jesus’ association with Christianity. Christianity has become docile, domesticated, civilized. We have forgotten that there is a kingdom of darkness stealing hopes and dreams and souls of a humanity without God. It is time to hear the barbarian call, to form a barbarian tribe, and to unleash the barbarian revolt. Let the invasion begin......” (The Barbarian Way, Erwin Raphael McManus p. 17)

“Two thousand years ago God started a revolt against the religion He started. So don’t ever put it past God to cause a groundswell movement against the churches and Christian institutions that bear His name. If He was willing to turn Judaism upside down, don’t think for a moment our institutions are safe from a divine revolt. I am convinced that even now there are multitudes of followers of Jesus Christ who are sick and tired of the Church playing games and playing down the call of God. My travels only confirm that the murmuring of revolution are everywhere. I am convinced that there is an uprising in the works and that no one less than God is behind it.”

“Anyone who can picture Jesus as the great Advocate of tradition is doing some serious doctoring of biblical history. Jesus was anything but the poster child for status quo. With a band of brothers and a small community of others, Jesus instituted an uprising that He expected to reach the very ends of the earth. You must never forget that it was only to a handful of individuals that Jesus entrusted an outcome that would make disciples of all the nations of earth. The uprising was to transcend culture, ethnicity, race, religion, status—every and any divide established by men” (The Barbarian Way, Erwin Raphael McManus p. 114-115)

“Strangely enough, though, some who come to Jesus Christ seem to immediately and fully embrace this barbarian way. They live their lives with every step moving forward and with every fiber of their being fight for the heart of their King. Jesus Christ has become the all-consuming passion of their lives. They are not about religion or position. They have little patience with institutions or bureaucracies. Their lack of respect for tradition or ritual makes them seem uncivilized to those who love religion. When asked if they are Christians, their answer might surprisingly be no, they are passionate followers of Jesus Christ. They see Christianity as a world religion, in many ways no different from any other religious system. Whether Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, or Christianity, they’re not about religion; they’re about advancing the revolution Jesus started two thousand years ago” (The Barbarian Way, Erwin Raphael McManus, p. 5-6)

“Even though I am free of the demands and expectations of everyone, I have voluntarily become a servant to any and all in order to reach a wide range of people; religious, nonreligious, meticulous moralists, loose-living immoralistis, the defeated, the demoralized–whoever. I didn’t take on their way of life. I kept my bearings in Christ–but I entered their world and tried to experience things from their point of view. I’ve become just about every sort of servant there is in my attempts to lead those I meet into a God-saved life. I did all this because of the Message. I didn’t just want to talk about it; I wanted to be in on it!” (The Message//Remix, 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Paul the Apostle).

“One person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. So, each person is free to follow the convictions of conscience. What’s important in all this is that if you keep a holy day, keep it for God’s sake, if you eat meat, eat it to the glory of God and thank God for broccoli. None of us are permitted to insist on our own way in these matters. It’s God we are answerable to–all the way from life to death and everything in between–not each other. That’s why Jesus lived and died and then lived again: so that he could be out Master across the entire range of life and death, and free us from the petty tyrannies of each other” (The Message//Remix, Romans 14:5-9, Paul the Apostle).

I am done now. No more on this subject from me. God bless you Dan. My fellow brother in the faith.

Brian Turner.
--Brian Turner ( bturner at renascentfaith dot com ) on 4/28/2005; 7:58:59 PM

Charlie wisley mentions that the difference in Brian's article and my comments is clearly the perspective not our biblical convictions.

Here is my perspective.
I mentioned the term "repenters",coined by the nonbelievers in this case also.
I would like to make the following analogy speaking from past experience.
Of these "repenters" some were secretly some openly compromising with the government: turning their brothers and sisters in, reporting the actions of the pastors to the local police, turning in to the government lists of new converts.
That is sad isn't it?

Get this, some of these informants were pastors, today justifying their actions under the righteous banner of helping the church. Compromising a little would keep the security of their back.

Here is my point, while these things were going on, bad as they were, it NEVER occured to any of the believers to drop their name of "repenters". They wore it with pride regardless of the circumstances.

1.If I carry the name "christian" I do it with honor because it reflects the Christ I follow and no winds of change, can ever alter that.
"Christian" is more than a term it is a way of life for me, I cannot separate the term from what I am.
2."Repenter" is a good name to have but is only the first step in the conversion process. I hope I have grown to be like Christ to be "christian"
dan paul
--dan paul ( dlpaul2002 at hotmail dot com ) on 4/28/2005; 3:55:46 PM

Hi, this is Brian Turner the author of “Ms. Holy Roller.” This is my response to Dan Paul’s response to my article. I pray that it will be taken with the love of Christ. Dan, I have much of the same concerns as you, and I have considered all you have written at one time or another. Thank you so much for your response. I am praying for you and your congregation.

I have placed Dan’s words in quotations. I have not edited them in any way whatsoever. My response is given after each quotation of Dan’s.

“I would like to express the saddness and dissappointment I felt reading your article.”

Dan, I agree there is an element of sadness about “Ms. Holy Roller.” I am saddened about the reality of people calling themselves Christian and living a lifestyle that in inconsistent with what the term originally meant. I am disappointed of the truthfulness of the article. It is my wish that the subject matter of the article were a figment of my imagination, but the fact remains that it is not.

“While we agree there are hypocrite "christians", we know there have always been this type of christians around and yet the kingdom of God moved foreward. They should be called to repentance or be called "immitations" of the genuine christian. What concerns me is the "cold shoulder" given to Christianity even to the point of abandonment.”

Yes, there have always been and will always be hypocrites. There is some hypocrisy in us all. However, “Ms. Holy Roller” is about those who claim Christianity but live a consistently, habitual lifestyle that says otherwise. At times, I wonder if these people are actually believers at all.

The Kingdom of God will always move forward regardless of the number of hypocrites that exist.

I hope that my article is in some way calling hypocrites to repentance and to a lifestyle more deserving of being called like Christ.

I am by no means giving a cold shoulder to Christianity when it is understood to mean Christlike behavior. It is more important to me to be as Jesus than it is to cling to a term that may or may not convey that.

“I am disappointed in Mr. Millers disregard for the term "christian" which represents, like it or not, all of us who claim christlikeness. The term "christian" was coined by nonbelievers (Acts 11:26) if we fail in our likeness to Christ let the nonbelievers take it away and coin us whatever they like. In Romania we were called "repenters", looking back I would have preferred to be called a christian, although many have compromised their principles with the communists.”

Mr. Miller did not disregard the term Christian. He only said he could not defend it as the quote reads. I am the one guilty of saying that I do not refer to myself as a Christian but as a follower of Jesus. However, I never stated that I totally disregard the term.

In the mind of believers, the word Christian represents Christlikeness. In the minds of unbelievers (generally speaking because I can not speak for all unbelievers), it represents anything but Christlikeness. Should I be concerned about that? Yes, I believe so. Let unbelievers criticize me for having the behavior of Jesus, but not for being equated as unChristlike. However, I do understand that this can even be blurred for I could be expressing all the character of Jesus and still be crucified, but at least I will be crucified for behaving as Jesus and not because I was viewed as being in conflict with the teachings of Christ.

It is also true that Christian was a term coined by unbelievers. It is my understanding that it was intended as a mockery not as a compliment. Unbelievers could see that believers were acting as Christ, which was something that unbelievers considered repugnant. In essence, however, unbelievers were saying that the disciples were living as Jesus. So, early believers took up the name in pride and began using it. Through the centuries and to this present day, the term Christian has become to mean something totally different. When the word Christian is spoken, it often conjures up thoughts of attitudes and behaviors that are not Christlike. In the first century, the word would have brought about a totally different picture in a person’s mind. They would have thought of Jesus. Unbelievers may have been rejecting of Jesus and His teachings, but they would have nonetheless thought of Him when the term Christian was used. In our day, the term does not give primary thought of Christ to nonbelievers. It gives the opposite effect.

Studies have shown that people in our culture are more accepting of Jesus than they are of Christianity. By saying that I am a follower of Jesus, unbelievers have a different perception than if I were to say I am a Christian. Mahatma Gandhi said, “I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

My point is that we should not be so concerned with being adamant about using a particular word to call ourselves by. We should be more concerned as to how we are expressing the character of Jesus. If the word “Christian” communicates behavior contrary to Christlikeness, I am for calling myself simply a follower of Christ. Jesus never told us to use any particular word to describe ourselves with. Simply put, the word Christian my have once been understood as being like Jesus, however it only has that meaning with us believers not to our culture at large. I always want to do all I can to give a good witness of Christ. If I have to go by a different title to do that, I believe it is appropriate to do so.

In regard to being called a repenter, I believe that is good. Repentance is definitely a Christilike character. Let the unbelievers call us repenters even if they do it in mockery. Why? Because it is behavior that is good. However, over time the word repenter could even begin to mean something entirely different to the masses. And I suppose that even calling ourselves followers of Jesus could eventually represent images of blatant hypocrisy. Here I would say that we should be in continual reform of our practices and the language whereby we communicate them. This idea is in accordance with the Reformers who declared that the Church should always be in a continual state of reform.


“Why should we hold in high regard anything Will Smith says when it comes to christianity? we take as a lesson in what is right or wrong with christianity from a rapper. DO you God's word should be the mirror in which all of us reflect upon and then change our ways (2Cor.3:18). There is so much attention given to Will Smith and others like him. Did someone proclaim them the new prophets of our age. Or are we inadvertantly doing it.(1Cor.3:14-16) "...People who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's spirit." On what basis should their comments go as far as to direct our thinking.? If we are on the wrong track of faith the Scripture should be our only guide back, not the words of a rapper who seeks personal gain while at blaming christianity for his problems. He could have many reasons for writing those words. Yet we elevate part of his song to the level of God's word.”

I am by no means equating the words of Will Smith with the Word of God no more that I am equating my own with the words of God or anyone else’s for that matter. The Scripture is always our ground for reproof, correction, and direction. The Bible is inerrant. However, our interpretations of it can be very much in error. We must never forget that God uses the saved and unsaved alike to do His will. Truth is truth regardless of whose mouth it comes out of. And I did say that there were things said in the rap I was in disagreement with, but I was only going to focus on the parts I agreed with. We must never forget that God can speak through a Jackass (which is not saying much about me). It is also possible for an unbeliever or a Jackass to proclaim the Word of God and never understand what he/she is saying, and still, in the end, bring complete glory to God.

“For history's sake, the attrocities done by the crusades (in the name of God) pale in comparison to the attrocities done in the name of evil, ex. Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussein and others still going on today. Do we as christians now think it fashionable to use the crusades against Christianity as nonbelievers do? We are saddened that it happened and we hope it never happens again. We must live with it now. If we are discussing religion and its faults the Ottoman empire (in the name of Allah)commited similar attrocities, I know my ancestors fought against them.”

I agree that much evil has been done for evil’s sake. I do not think it is fashionable to use the crusades against Christianity. I am only speaking the truth. The atrocities did happen. I am repentant of them, and I also pray to God they never happen again. They are still, however, a black eye to the cause of Jesus that we as His followers should be in repentance of in the face of unbelievers.

“I am a pastor of a Romanian Baptist Church in Cleveland Ohio. I call people to a relationship with Jesus Christ, I openly condemn the doublestandards of immature christians without having to disregard Christianity. Nonbelievers disregard it enough without my help. I wonder, is there no saints left for them to look at as inspiration? or are we like Elijah after the confruntation with the evil priests, wallowing in self pitty. Many have shed their own blood suffering and dying for the Christ of Christianity. They must have known something. Lets chip away at the compromising lifstyle of christians. If we chip away at Christianity we might find that more things will crumble that we bargained for.”

I am not disregarding Christianity as believers understand it. I fully embrace orthodox Christianity and its teachings. Yet, I am concerned about using a term that equates me to behavior that is not at all like orthodox Christianity. As I have shown earlier, the word Christian does not mean Christlikeness anymore. It is only understood to have that definition among believers. Being called Christian is not something that is required to be a follower of Christ. I am not chipping away at Christ or His sincere followers. Jesus Himself stood against tradition for tradition’s sake. Could it be possible that we are doing the same by holding so firmly to a term that no longer conveys the message of Christ? Should we not change the language and words we communicate with as the language of the culture changes? That is what I am asking. A mere change in language and vocabulary not a departure from true Christlikeness as Jesus would have us live. Believers have shed there blood for the cause of Christ. They did not give their lives for the use of a word that no longer communicates the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Christ,

Brian Turner
--Brian Turner ( bturner at renascentfaith dot com ) on 4/28/2005; 12:41:07 PM

I agree with Dan that we should not give up the term Christian; however I understand very well where Brian is coming from. If you were to go to another country where Christianity is in the minority, then we should want to wear the name “Christian” just to differentiate. However, in North America where it seems that the majority call themselves Christian, but “God” is who you want him to be in your own mind, then perhaps we do need to shed the term. I think that culture has a lot to do with it. Its just like the term Fundamental….years ago, we would want to be referred to as a fundamentalist, evangelical Christian……now those terms have such negative connotations that I would never associate myself with those that call themselves that. I live in Canada which recently has dropped the adjective “Christian” in its description, but most people I talk to, still consider themselves to be Christian, (excepting of course, those who belong to another religious group) even if they don’t believe in Jesus or even care who He is.
I think it would be interesting to see people’s reaction if I were to say that I’m a “follower of Jesus” rather than tell them I’m a Christian. I’m going to try that next time!!

Also, I agree that we should not shy away from offending people with our message. The Bible says that the name of Jesus will be a stench to some and a sweet smell to others. I think that people might be more offended if I say that I’m a follower of Jesus than if I tell them I’m a Christian. I also think that we will need to be even more careful in our living testimony if we use that term. People will be watching to see if we are hypocritical in our lives…where as everyone and their dog call themselves Christians, so no one really cares about how we live.
Thanks Brian for an interesting perspective.
--Janice ( xapitos_2004 at yahoo dot ca ) on 4/27/2005; 11:05:12 PM

It is interesting how perspective makes all the difference. Dan, your comments are appreciated and well-taken. I think Brian is not holding up Will Smith as a prophet, nor a theologian. Merely commiserating with the bad "rap" that some deserve because of bad behavior by Christians. As a Christian, rather than renouncing my identification with the term, I want to be one who is an ambassador of the kingdom. Don't we all.
Blessings,
Charlie
--Charlie Wear ( charleswear at yahoo dot com ) on 4/27/2005; 7:32:32 PM

I would like to express the saddness and dissappointment I felt reading your article.
1. While we agree there are hypocrite "christians", we know there have always been this type of christians around and yet the kingdom of God moved foreward. They should be called to repentance or be called "immitations" of the genuine christian. What concerns me is the "cold shoulder" given to Christianity even to the point of abandonment.

2.I am disappointed in Mr. Millers disregard
for the term "christian" which represents, like it or not, all of us who claim christlikeness.
The term "christian" was coined by nonbelievers (Acts 11:26) if we fail in our likeness to Christ let the nonbelievers take it away and coin us whatever they like.
In Romania we were called "repenters", looking back I would have preferred to be called a christian, although many have compromised their principles with the communists.

3. Why should we hold in high regard anything Will Smith says when it comes to christianity? we take as a lesson in what is right or wrong with christianity from a rapper. DO you
God's word should be the mirror in which all of us reflect upon and then change our ways (2Cor.3:18).
There is so much attention given to Will Smith and others like him. Did someone proclaim them the new prophets of our age.
Or are we inadvertantly doing it.(1Cor.3:14-16) "...People who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's spirit."
On what basis should their comments go as far as to direct our thinking.? If we are on the wrong track of faith the Scripture should be our only guide back, not the words of a rapper who seeks personal gain while at blaming christianity for his problems. He could have many reasons for writing those words. Yet we elevate part of his song to the level of God's word.
4. For history's sake, the attrocities done by the crusades (in the name of God) pale in comparison to the attrocities done in the name of evil, ex. Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussein and others still going on today. Do we as christians now think it fashionable to use the crusades against Christianity as nonbelievers do? We are saddened that it happened and we hope it never happens again. We must live with it now.
If we are discussing religion and its faults the Ottoman empire (in the name of Allah)commited similar attrocities, I know my ancestors fought against them.
5. I am a pastor of a Romanian Baptist Church in Cleveland Ohio.
I call people to a relationship with Jesus Christ, I openly condemn the doublestandards of immature christians without having to disregard Christianity. Nonbelievers disregard it enough without my help. I wonder, is there no saints left for them to look at as inspiration? or are we like Elijah after the confruntation with the evil priests, wallowing in self pitty.

Many have shed their own blood suffering and dying for the Christ of Christianity. They must have known something. Lets chip away at the compromising lifstyle of christians. If we chip away at Christianity we might find that more things will crumble that we bargained for.
dan paul
--dan paul ( dlpaul2002 at hotmail dot com ) on 4/27/2005; 4:54:47 PM